D-clothing.... what do you do with yourself?

[dman]

When you are escalating, when do you take your own clothes off? Though obviously you don't need to undress completely to have sex, I find removing at least your own jeans is good (if you only have the zip down you run the risk of "accidents".... while if I have the jeans half way down my movement of my legs is restricted and certain positions are more difficult etc...).

So for instance, what point do you remove your own jeans? Personally I tend to take them off before hers. I'm leading here in going first... once I'm half naked she can hardly object to herself.

[Brian]

I personally go first.

I don't always do the ramp - as you get better, you will develop your own style. All the ramp does is show you what's possible.

What I do is I take my shirt off, kiss her, then take her shirt off, take my pants off, then take hers off, etc.

Keep in mind, I'm not like a robot. I'm absolutely crazy about the woman that I'm with - my attention is only on her, and I'm turned on by her body and femininity/submissiveness.

I balance this with reassurance - telling her how fun and warm she is, and holding hands and holding her close to me. I don't get LMR because women know that I truly value them and would never "hit it and quit it."

[copperbosses]

I signed up just to get clarification on this one point.

I realize that as you get more advanced you don't always stick to the technical strategy. But not everyone is there, and since this IS the DiCarlo webpage, AND the "DiCarlo Escalation Ladder" forum, it would be nice if someone could give an answer that doesn't involve ditching the whole system. The whole point of the ladder is for less experienced guys to not have to 'wing it'. It surprises me there is nothing in there about taking off your own pants. Since its something that can trigger her LMR, and its something that HAS to happen in every lay. Why isn't it on the ramp? Its the only hole in an otherwise perfect model of escalation in my opinion.

I have had atleast two girls freak over my own pants coming off. So it does happen. Or I'll take mine off and then shes ok with that as long as hers dont come off and then im left naked with her dressed and me lookin like a tool haha.

But seriuosly, without ditching the entire ramp model, where is a good place to insert the part where the guy takes his pants off?

[king_david23]

A couple things to consider -

1) the system isnt meant to hold your hand and be a crutch its really moreso a framework for you to operate in

2) I get the feeling when you say you take your pants off that theres a hitch somewhere in the system - like shes not turned on enough or theres something weird about how you do it - I personally havent ever had this problem as most girls ask you to take your pants off when they are ready.

3) Think about her being turned on a volume knob - get her as hot as is necessary for her to procede to the next step - shes taking a big risk having sex with you - put those issues to bed as you continue to escalate and turn her on

4) Pleasure her through clothes and make them the obstacle to better pleasure - rubbing her pussy thru her panties feels good but feels way better when her panties come off - she knows this and she will probably help you out.

[copperbosses]

It's funny how on a pickup board, getting people to answer a direct question is like trying to sweep water into a pile...
It's the same question the OP asked and didn't get an aswer to.

Personally, it has happened on strange occasions where I was gaming an ex who had internal conflicts and I was having to push my game HARD the whole time. Also I have tried just waiting until they ask for my pants to come off or go for it, and that is not very reliable at all, even when I know they want sex. But the question isnt an issue of my personal-game/development. I just want to know where on the model they would put that missing step.

Also, I would disagree that the ramp isn't a crutch. Thats exactly what it is, a crutch to hold your hand until you have more natural intuitions about when to do everything. Thats why people are not using it once they have more experience as everyone keeps wanting to point out again and again. (please dont threadjack with your contrary opinions about this until the single question gets answered)
And yes I know what you are saying: get her turned on first... of course.

But do you see how silly it is to map a model of escalation to this level detail, and leave out something as important as when to take the dick out (PYCO)?

Let me restate the question again since you didn't answer it. I don't mean to be rude. But if you reply, please answer the single question (call it a theoretical one). Giving me your impressions of how I come across or some other answer along the lines of "just get her turned on first", or saying some point in time relative to something not certain on the ramp are all just ways of dancing around the actual question.
Hope I dont sound like an ass, I just get frustrated with irrelevant answers to direct questions. I don't mind discussion or hearing peoples 2 cents about the side stuff, but I'm trying to shine a laser beam on this ONE thing, if you get me.

The question is, within the framework of the DiCarlo Ladder espoused by this company and this forum, for the sake of making it a more complete model of sexual escalation, and without ditching that structured framework to answer, where would/could the PYCO step be inserted into the ramp?

[dt3ks]

If you want a 'where on the ramp does the pants come off' I would say somewhere between 'direct frontal vaginal stimulation' and railing her. I almost always take mine off after her's come off, thats just how it happens. Like this last girl I was fucking the time before last or so, I got so into it that when it came time for me to take my pants off my shoes and socks were still on and I have to totally divert my attention from her BUT its not like that fucked up the lay at all. We just both kinda giggled, I took my shit off and we got back to it.

I would say if your getting a response like when you take your pants off you are doing it WAY too early and she isn't 'all hot and bothered' enough. If you're getting mild resistance like she doesn't want HER pants taken off, agian same problem. Just, go back a step, heat her up, and try agian.

Also you should respect the replies to your thread especially from a trainer, try and actually listen to what they are saying. Your focus is all wrong.

[copperbosses]

First, thanks for your reply and actually answering. I think I tend to agree that for the most part, her pants off first tends to be a better route. For a bunch of reasons, keeps the upper hand, getting compliance from her first and so on.

But I think people are missing the point of my question and I must respond to your last paragraph: I do respect replies. And I did listen, enough to see that the question wasn't answered. Also, you can't say my focus is wrong because you literally have no idea what my actual gaming focus is. Other than me asking this one question and persisting until someone actually gives a straight answer. I assume when you refer to my focus, you are implying that I believe things HAVE to happen in some exact specific order, which is not my mindset, for the record. Yes, in the broad sense, I think some things really do have to happen before others, but when you get down to specific items, I realize things can be skipped and moved around. Even then, there is probably an optimal sequence which leads to the least number of problems coming about. That is the reason for the existence of this model in the first place.

That being said, the dicarlo ladder is an attempt to map out a smooth sequence of escalation to sex, and vin dicarlo himself has suggested it could be used as a standalone method. Saying "it doesnt matter when you do this or that" misses the point of it having been created in the first place. What's the point of having a system based on a particular kino sequence, and then responding to questions by saying sequence doesn't matter.

What if the DEL had happened to leave out the part about when to take off her pants? And then I ask 'where is that missing step', and people reply that I'm overly focused on sequence... Okay, why are all these other steps included then?

The whole ladder is an attempt to map a workable sequence explicitly, and thus when becoming familiar with the model, it is not poor focus to ask where the missing step goes. The same goes for my pants coming off which actually is missing... Me taking off my pants is just as important of a step on the ramp as any other, and there is no reason to exclude it other than the author simply overlooking it by accident. I am pointing out how the model is incomplete in this way. It isn't a question of my game or my focus, it's a question of the completeness of the model. All these other replys are basically saying "you're game will be fine with this model, incomplete as it may be". And maybe thats true, but dammit there's no reason not to just fill in the hole. (thats what we all want anyway right? )

And then I'm getting people trying to invalidate my question all these different ways rather than just simply answering it. Saying my life experiences must have been misinterpreted, and therefore somehow inquiry into this particular hole in the model is not legitimate or worthy of an answer. I need not have actually run into this problem in order ask about it and expect that some answer should exist.

So, sorry for the rant, but can you see how frustrating it is, on a website about this, and an entire forum specifically dedicated to this one sequence of kino escalation, asking such a direct question and getting a bunch of irrelevant side junk like "get her turned on enough". Basically what it amounts to is thread-jacking. Or how frustrating it is to get replies along the lines of "dont worry about the sequence" in the KINO ESCALATION SEQUENCE FORUM. It's self contradicting to have a system based on a sequence of kino (hence the frame there is an optimal sequence), and then respond to questions with the frame that sequence isn't so important.

So once again, I don't mean to be rude, and I respect everyone here, but I simply want to make my point clear.

Whether or not perfect sequence is important when gaming, perfect sequence is very important when writing a method about sequence.

[dt3ks]

I feel your frustration. I think I get what you are saying now. You are trying to point out that the DEL is incomplete based on an oversight or an assumption, leaving out the removing of cloths step in the DEL.

Personally I find it to be an unessesary step to include.

Here is the thing dude, the DEL is designed to help eliminate ASD and LMR. Its about making her comfortable with you and then aroused enough to want your cock. Which in it's self is attractive, which is why it could be used as a stand alone method Its not about holding your hand step by step like 'now take your pants off', 'take her pants off', 'now kiss her right nipple','now lick your finger and slide it in her vagina','now make a come hither motion with your finger', ect. If you just follow the ladder and the ramp to the last step it just doesn't matter how your pants come off. Forget about your pants and focus on her and how SHE feels and she'll love you for it... alteast once haha.

I hope this helps I don't wish to offend anyone either, good luck to ya man.

[Rewok]

Christ... Sweeping water into a pile? 'Scuse the french, but what the fuck?... THe DEL is perfect as it is standalone, if you go through the whole thing where she SAYS she wants you in her, or to get a condom... The pants thing is a non-issue.