FR: first time use of the DEL.

[authenticallyme]

PS.........i totally knew you'd all come around and LIKE me.


*big hearty sigh*

[flow]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

i agree about the forums 'overall and encompassing' purpose.......but it seems like no one here will step out and validate some of the things im reading. while i can now appreicate there is a process and depth here that although i may not understand, still exists-

Well, several posters actually have validated some of the things you are reading, and uncomfortable with, but they don't exactly spell it out, most likely because they don't want to alienate those who wrote those things. And they also points out that you're reading the post outside the context they are written in, and try to describe that context.

One comment I've seen that made me jump when I was new here was something like "If she has invited you to her apartment to sleep, then she wants to have sex, so go for it."

This is a really crappy advice because if you don't understand the context then its just an old attitude full of disrespect for women, and it will make some guy, who take it the wrong way, a rapist.

But if the advice is red as if it means "Since she invited you to her apartment to sleep she probably has had fantasies about it possible leading to sex and she might want that to happen if it happens in a way she likes, so try to make it happen in a way she likes, but don't push it beyond her comfort zone."

Well, then its a fairly good advice. And this is how most guys here actually would have meant it to be interpreted. Some posters just assume that there is a common understanding that you never do anything that would hurt or harm a woman, others make sure they write in such a way as to not create confusion about that common understanding.

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

i ALSO read things (like on the homepage for Vic) about a testimonial where a dude got his chick to do a threesome. im sure he has all kinds of 'she-really-wanted-to's" to back it up, but sorry, i see some of the tactics here used to manipulate. not every post; not by everyone....but i do see it, and it is hurtful to me as a woman, and it also saddens me.......for other women, and even the men who use these tactics.

I can't speak for that guy or for why Vic uses that in his marketing. But I can tell you something else.

I've always assumed that women don't want threesomes, that most women are not bisexual, that women don't like kinky sex and generally that women are less interested in sex than men. And that women who take part in all these things are manipulated or dominated by men who only care about themselves. Because that is what the culture surrounding me when I grew up told me.

But a consistent advice from a lot of different sources in the pick up community is that if you believe those things about women then you don't pay attention to the women around you, and you should start to pay attention. So I did.

One of the things I've found is that my wife has spent 13 years telling me stories about how women flirt with her, how excited she is when women flirt with her, how she finds women attractive, which types of women she finds attractive, how she once had a total crush on another woman, how she used to play really kinky things with some female friends when she was a kid, how important she thinks it is with having an open mind towards gay people and recently she playfully and excited accused me of being bisexual when a gay guy flirted with me and I flirted back.

Basically she has been telling me at least a hundred times that she is potentially bisexual. And I didn't listen because it wasn't congruent with what I believed to be possible, so I interpreted it as a kind of insecure jealous test thing she did to me sometimes. How utterly stupid of me, now I have thirteen years of ignorance to overcome.

And this is not the only thing, looking back I can tell all girlfriends of mine has hinted a lot that they wanted to do much kinkier sex than we did and at least half of them has hinted at ideas of group-sex or sex in public. And I turned a lot of it down because I couldn't believe they meant it. How amazingly stupid of me.

One male friend of mine once, just out of the blue, said that he and his wife had discussed to invite me to group-sex with them and he was curious if I was interested. I thought it was a joke so I said no, because knowing him I couldn't see how He could have come up with the idea. Well he didn't, because it was his wife's idea, how else could you interpreted the fact that every dinner party I've ever been to with them she hints at the subject by starting conversations with me around ideas of women having two men. And every time I've said I think its a stupid idea, and elaborated on that theme, because I thought she was trying to make her husband jealous or something. How stupid of me, especially since she is the kind of woman I can't look at without imagining her standing on all four naked.

If twenty years ago I had known and used the stuff I've learnt the past year, hanging around in this forum and some others, then not only had my sex life been far beyond most peoples imagination, but a lot of women had been much happier because I could have fulfilled their fantasies and made their lives richer in a lot of other aspects too. Not that its been bad, but it could have been amazing.

I know that some guys use methods and tactics to manipulate, there has always been men (and women) who does that, but those are the guys not paying attention to the women around them. The truth is you don't have to manipulate, you only have to pay attention to women and use the methods and tactics to fulfill THEIR fantasies, because they usually don't know how to do that themselves.

And don't say that women offer sex or threesomes or kinky sex or whatever just to get some emotional connection back from guys (there are some who do) because its easy to spot the difference when women offer sex in exchange for something and when they are hinting at the possibility of fulfilling a fantasy for them. In my experience women who hints at fantasies become almost electrified if you hint back that you might have the same fantasy. Women who is looking for something else in return doesn't get electrified.

And since the world is full of women with amazing fantasies as soon as you start paying attention, there is really no need to manipulate or use women who don't want what you want. Its just a waste of time.

Just as you, I feel sad too when I see people manipulate and end up hurting others. And very much so if they post about it here. But its not the result of them using methods and tactics learned here or somewhere else. Instead its the result of them not paying attention and seeing reality as it is, before they used the methods they had learnt. And that is true of every method and every tactic ever invented, regardless if it was for the purpose of picking up girls or for something entirely different. It is a characteristic of knowledge.

Which brings me back to one of your earliest post. Didn't you want us to look at reality? Well, we do. And reality is far more amazing than anyone would have thought. I just wish I had found out sooner.

/Flow

[dman]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

i agree about the forums 'overall and encompassing' purpose.......but it seems like no one here will step out and validate some of the things im reading. while i can now appreicate there is a process and depth here that although i may not understand, still exists-i ALSO read things (like on the homepage for Vic) about a testimonial where a dude got his chick to do a threesome. im sure he has all kinds of 'she-really-wanted-to's" to back it up, but sorry, i see some of the tactics here used to manipulate. not every post; not by everyone....but i do see it, and it is hurtful to me as a woman, and it also saddens me.......for other women, and even the men who use these tactics.

You do a lot of assuming here I've noticed, it is as if you are actively looking for something that offends you by taking on your own assumptions that will help support your viewpoint and further rile you up. Do you know anything at all about that threesome, as to if she want to or not? Or what he said, if anything "manipulative" was used. You see from my point of view, based on my extensive experience with the community, my first natural assumption is that she does like it and he didn't do anything "manipulative".


Oh, and please stop using the phrase "decrassified". It is highly insulting to me and everybody else here, is disrespectful for you to carry on using it. Thanks.

[authenticallyme]

Originally Posted by dman

You do a lot of assuming here I've noticed, it is as if you are actively looking for something that offends you by taking on your own assumptions that will help support your viewpoint and further rile you up. Do you know anything at all about that threesome, as to if she want to or not? Or what he said, if anything "manipulative" was used. You see from my point of view, based on my extensive experience with the community, my first natural assumption is that she does like it and he didn't do anything "manipulative".


Oh, and please stop using the phrase "decrassified". It is highly insulting to me and everybody else here, is disrespectful for you to carry on using it. Thanks.

now who is assuming? may i see the detailed report of who all has privately told you in so many words that this offends them? many here can probalby see by now my dark sarcastic humor.....do you have issue with saying things nicely? it still gets the point across, you know. you only have the right to ASK me to stop using it, that is all. if i still keep saying it what will you do? aloow what i do, what i say to control you? you are crashing boundaries here....you are acting pissy becasue you think i dont 'get' what is said. im going to repost my post.......because where exactly do you think i am 100% percent assuming anything? in contrast, apparently YOU yourself are assuming much about me and my posts. but im sure you cant see that, huh? the irony of it all....i suppose i feel i have an eensy more right to be pissy now, becasue you are initiating in the manner inw hcih you approach me about what youd ont like or dont agree with. you are allowed to share you feelings (you dont like 'decrassified' because it is offensive) but when i share my feelings (post above) it is viewed differently. i cant stand double standards. its unnerving. i have no problem with being confronted......it is the MANNER in which you try to do so, which is offensive to me. mostly i shared THOUGHT and FEELINGS about myself-and they are being judged as if they are black and white.

[authenticallyme]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme
***i agree about the forums 'overall and encompassing' purpose.......but it seems like no one here will step out and validate some of the things im reading. while i can now appreicate there is a process and depth here that although i may not understand, still exists-i ALSO read things (like on the homepage for Vic) about a testimonial where a dude got his chick to do a threesome. im sure he has all kinds of 'she-really-wanted-to's" to back it up, but sorry, i see some of the tactics here used to manipulate. not every post; not by everyone....but i do see it, and it is hurtful to me as a woman, and it also saddens me.......for other women, and even the men who use these tactics.***

bolded portions, to make a point. you cant see that i wasnt simply stating *my* thoughts, and wasnt giving acknoweldgement that not everyone is doing it, and i was trying to say i can appreicate the processs and depth here. i personally saw some good things i said in that there paragraph.....and i was just looking for some validation that the things i was reading here sometimes dont come across that some men who take Vic's lessons, arent using them for manipulative purposes. i mean cmon. every teaching tool can be abused, whether good or bad.

oh and yes, ive had many threesomes...i was quite the slut back in my day.

the main point of the paragrpah was to point out i was reading and seeing posts here or on the homepage that werent parralelling what some of the men here were saying to me. i now understand that some people who come here dont 'get' what this site is about, and a few people here (NOW have) validated that.......and i also understand the concept that no one here is going to outright, brashly, diss that portion of the board, as it is vital for any board to uplift unity, in spite of possible diversities. i wasnt internally 'assuming' anything about the man who had the threesome with his woamn, i was picking and suing that story as an EXAMPLE so as to get someone to answer me on that.....of course i dont know everything about that story. i was frustrated, so i picked a sample from the board to use to get some discussion, concerning things i have said earlier in various posts (about the few aspects i didnt like/agree with about the board).

i really feel that im trying to be NICER and willing to discuss, and you are just out to disrespect me personally because i dont share the same views. you are not gentle at all, and you win a lot more flies with honey. you are assuming attacks by me without even asking for more information, like 'is this what you mean?'.......how can you not see that you yourself are doing a lot of assuming (especially if you think *I* am)?

[authenticallyme]

Originally Posted by dman

You do a lot of assuming here I've noticed, it is as if you are actively looking for something that offends you by taking on your own assumptions that will help support your viewpoint and further rile you up. Do you know anything at all about that threesome, as to if she want to or not? Or what he said, if anything "manipulative" was used. You see from my point of view, based on my extensive experience with the community, my first natural assumption is that she does like it and he didn't do anything "manipulative".


Oh, and please stop using the phrase "decrassified". It is highly insulting to me and everybody else here, is disrespectful for you to carry on using it. Thanks.

"YOU SEE FROM MY POINT OF VIEW......"

oh? should is ee that? you dont care to affirm mine. ok, that is your point of view, i accept that. i likewise am allowed MY point of view, even if you dont understand what my "NATURAL ASSUMPTION" over a particular scenario would be.

"IS DISRESPECTFUL"....you state that as if it were factual, which it isnt. it is simply the way YOU interpreted that it was INTENDED (another assumption) to be disrespectful......which isnt even a thought i had when saying it! i acknowledge that this is YOUR INDIVIDUAL thought/feeling.....even though you couldnt word it that way.... and if it offended you, in spite of my intention to NOT to do that......what you made was a blanket statement, and then try to hang me for it as if it were pure fact. you cant read my heart. and you cant read everyone else's. the only right here you have is to take ownership for how YOU intepreted that, and how it made YOU feel.

and for that, i sincerely apologize.....its my sick twisted sense of humor.....most people dont get it so i understand, though the few who do seem to get a kick out of it. i was not deliberately trying to offend by saying DECRASSified. but if it does offend anybody regardless of my intnetion, i would alwasy apologize for that. the first key is in letting me know, and once again, it was really hard to decipher that from your post, because it seemed attacking...however, i now get it.

[rarebreed]

and i was just looking for some validation that the things i was reading here sometimes dont come across that some men who take Vic's lessons, arent using them for manipulative purposes. i mean cmon. every teaching tool can be abused, whether good or bad.

Okay. Understood.

I know many men who suck with woman. They know nothing of these tools and continue to do the same thing with woman that has done nothing, but leave them single for years. What do you suggest that they do? How can they be more successful? What should one do to not use the tool in an abusive way?

oh and yes, ive had many threesomes...i was quite the slut back in my day.

Why did you stop being, as you call it, a "slut"? What are the cues a man should look for in a woman who has the potential to get in a threesome with another woman?

i really feel that im trying to be NICER and willing to discuss, and you are just out to disrespect me personally because i dont share the same views. you are not gentle at all, and you win a lot more flies with honey. you are assuming attacks by me without even asking for more information, like 'is this what you mean?'.......how can you not see that you yourself are doing a lot of assuming (especially if you think *I* am)?

Come on, Guys. Quit acting like bitches. She is, after all, a woman and they also have feelings.

Who are the flies and what is the honey?

[authenticallyme]

flow.......i havent had ample time to respond to your lengthy post. havent been online much all week, and i used up all my internets time on replying to dman. lets see if he appreciates it or not.....(kidding dman, KIDDING.......*sigh*)

also, this IS NOT a 'loaded' question.....but do you have an open relationship with your wife? I understand if it is private, but just thought id risk the asking. no problem, if its personal; me comprende.

[flow]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

flow.......i havent had ample time to respond to your lengthy post. havent been online much all week, and i used up all my internets time on replying to dman. lets see if he appreciates it or not.....(kidding dman, KIDDING.......*sigh*)

also, this IS NOT a 'loaded' question.....but do you have an open relationship with your wife? I understand if it is private, but just thought id risk the asking. no problem, if its personal; me comprende.

Its cool... I wasn't really expecting an answer anyway... and I noticed in some other post of yours that you must have red it

About your question, its a perfectly valid question, and I have been thinking about it. And I have come to the conclusion that its not a relevant question, because our relationship cannot be defined in terms of closed or open. There is a tremendously strong bond of love and affection between us, and we live very tight together. We run a business together, which means we work together all day long. We both think about ourselves as buddhist minded, we are clearly non-christian in our world-view.

As for relationships with others, we both tend to have very emotionally deep friendships with people outside our marriage. I personally find it easier to build emotional bonds with women than with men so two thirds of my very close friends are women, the rest an equal mix of gay men and straight men. My wife's friends are mostly people of both sexes and different sexual orientations who share her dislike for traditional heterosexual man+woman+kids family types, she finds such traditionally minded people totally annoying in their world view and life goals. Some of our friends are shared in that we each have separate emotional bonds with the same person.

So the question isn't "Do we have an open relationship?", but "How can we further expand and enhance our relationship with each other and with other people? And doing it without destroying something we have?"

We have talked about and share the view that we want our sexlife to become more exciting. How to make it more exciting is something we haven't discussed yet.

As for acting on this I'll just wait and pay attention, until there is an opportunity to let something just happen. Then begins an exciting journey. I certainly wont try to push things in any direction out of impatience.

Did that answer your question?

/Flow

[authenticallyme]

yes, it did. thank you.

[flow]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

yes, it did. thank you.

Anytime

Just out of curiosity. Why did you ask that particular question? I guess I could assume something but that hasn't been very productive in the past in my relationship with you

[dman]

Originally Posted by authenticallyme

flow.......i havent had ample time to respond to your lengthy post. havent been online much all week, and i used up all my internets time on replying to dman. lets see if he appreciates it or not.....(kidding dman, KIDDING.......*sigh*)

heh, appreciate it? well, I'll give you a cookie for your replies if you are ever over in NZ.

Though did you really need to reply several times to my one post? gee, not sure if I can keep up with that rate of responses!

Yes, you are right that it is my right to ask. As you may or may not have noticed, I did use the word "please".

Random other note:
"You have included 6 images in your message. You are limited to using 4 images so please go back and correct the problem and then continue again. "

awww... I can only have four similies (sad face inserted here that I'm not able to use due to limit! lol)